Hacking Your HealthcareNov 20, 2018
Are you ready to take ownership of your own healthcare? Our current system is broken; we’re focused on treatments and pills rather than positive outcomes. Meanwhile, the rates for nearly every modern disease are increasing, even as the U.S. spends 20% of its GDP on medical care. Functional medicine seeks to change all that! Meet Dr. Mark Hyman, a Functional Medicine physician on the frontlines of a healthcare revolution. He’s an author, Founder and Director of the UltraWellness Center, and Director of the Cleveland Clinic Center for Functional Medicine.
Mark: I'm Dr. Mark Hyman and I'm a doctor. Hopefully, a good one, and I practice functional medicine, family medicine by training, and I'm the Director of the Cleveland Clinic Center for Functional Medicine, which is the only academic functional medicine center in the world. I also founded the UltraWellness Center in Lenox, Massachusetts, where we have been open for almost 15 years with extraordinary physicians healing people from all over the world of chronic illness, using functional medicine. And I've written 14 books, 11 have been best sellers, on health and functional medicine and food, and I am an activist looking at changing our food system, our medical care system.
Jeff: Trying to do good in the world. Like medicine, you're holistic in your approach. So you went to med school, and what was that inflection point of wait a minute, there's this functional medicine thing, and that's what I'm really interested in.
Mark: Well, I was weird before I went to medical school.
I studied Buddhism and Asian studies, I studied TM when I was 15 back in the early 70s.Then I studied yoga before I went to medical school, so I had a very unusual pre-medical career.
I studied ancient healing systems and traditional healing systems from around the world, read a book called Planet Medicine when I was in college, and studied Buddhist healing systems. I did an independent study course on healing systems thinking, which was kind of interesting because it was the presage of functional medicine, which is systems thinking about biology. How does everything work together?
When I graduated I'm like, "Well, what am I going to do? I have a degree in Buddhism and Chinese?" Well, maybe I'll go to China and study Chinese medicine, and then I was like, "No, I don't want to spend my 20s in a fascist dictatorship. I think I'll just try medical school." And I got in to one medical school in Canada, where I grew up, and it turned out great. I said, "I'll stay as long as I like it," and I still like it, so I'm staying.
Jeff: That's a great story.
Mark: I was pretty out there in medical school, but I think I gained the respect of my colleagues and professors because I graduated near the top of my class. They're like, okay, this kid's a little weird but he's smart.
Then actually I got a little brainwashed, to be honest with you, when I went through medical school, because it's such an inculcation of a certain paradigm. It's so fixed about disease. That got under my skin. I still was always focused on nutrition, lifestyle, yoga, health. I was always a vegetarian, for 10 years, I ran five miles a day, did yoga an hour a day, I was really focused on wellness and health, and meditating, but I just got sort of sucked into the paradigm, and I was a really good family doctor. I delivered babies, went to a small town in Idaho, I really loved engaging with my patients and connecting with them, and I just love being a doctor.
But after a while I realized that it wasn't what I wanted to be doing. Then I actually was working in the ER for a while. Then I played this mental game with myself, which was, "Gee, how many people are here today because of some behavior or action or thing that they did that they could have prevented?
It was pretty striking, and I decided I wanted to do something different. Like life goes, you don't make choices, things happen that take you down a path, and I got a job offer as the medical director at Canyon Ridge, which was a health resort, and I built from scratch the functional medicine program there.
I really got very sick after I got the job with mercury poisoning, which I got from China, and I ended up collapsing. My physical body broke down, my gut broke down, my immune system broke down, my muscles started breaking down. I really was very sick. I was able to manage because I only had to work from 9:00 to 4:00 every day, and I could go down and get a massage over lunch or go to the sauna. I pushed my way through, I only worked three days a week, so I was able to kind of fake my way through it, but it was tough.
Through functional medicine, I began to heal and repair and start seeing my patients, and saw some incredible results. People would get better, and they'd call me back. I'd say, "Well, how you doing?" "Well, I'm better." I'm like, "What do you mean you're better?" Like this shouldn't work.
It was shocking to me as a doctor to see that behind these principles of systems approach, dealing with the root causes, asking why, not just what disease do you have, understanding how to restore balance in the system, using these principles of functional medicine that I was able to help people with neurodegenerative disease, with Parkinson's, dementia, depression, ADD, autoimmune diseases, digestive problems, hormonal dysregulation, so many different issues. Skin problems, I mean people with psoriasis all over the body, or acne would go away after a decade. I was quite striking, and so I was like, "Holy crap, this is real."
Jeff: It's so interesting how your personal experience colored your experience in medical school and then after. You were coming at medical school from already a rooted place of well being and wellness.
Oftentimes, it's the other way around. You have a traditional upbringing, you go to med school, you become a doctor and then someone hits you to some other kind of holistic wellness or approach, and you start to get curious. But you were coming at it from a completely different point of view, and it sounds like your illness was in a way a blessing, because you could actually apply some of the things that you were thinking about to yourself.
Mark: The wounded healer, that's definitely me. So many things that have happened to me, and through them all I've learned how survive and heal and repair and learn things that I could use with my patients.
Jeff: I wanted to ask you, since we're here at Wanderlust Wellspring, which is really a community gathering around the notion of wellbeing, and also connecting the notion of personal wellbeing to societal wellbeing, and this is the Commune podcast, which is about bringing people together to live happy and healthy and purpose-filled lives. So you have a quote, one of my favorite quotes, but it also begs some question for me, which is this. "The power of community to create health is far greater than any physician, clinic or hospital." Can you explain that a little bit? And also, is that a differentiating factor between functional medicine and the way traditional Western medicine approaches care?
Mark: Well, yes, it is a different factor, and it's critically important. I spent my first 20 years in this field studying the biology of humans, right? How do we create a healthy human, how do I dig into the intricacies of biochemistry and physiology and genetics and the microbiome, the mitochondria and the immune system, and on and on and on. It was like going into Alice in Wonderland, it was just so amazing once you see how everything connects and everything relates to each other. It was fascinating. And I'm like, "Gee, this is a bigger problem."
I went to Haiti after the earthquake, and I ended up with a guy named Paul Farmer, who basically cured TB and AIDS in the worst place in the Western Hemisphere, not by better drugs and surgery but by using the power of community. Each other. He called it accompaniment. We accompany each other to health. He basically creating thousands of community health workers that were people's neighbors, helped them get clean water, get a watch, learn how to take their medicines. If they didn't take their pills, they would show up at their door. It was like a really amazing, connected experience.
You look at [Chris Dock's] work from Harvard, and he showed that we are highly influenced by our community. He found that if you're overweight, if your friends are overweight you're 170% more likely to be overweight then, if your family's overweight. And if your friend is overweight, you're also more likely to be overweight.
I get this guy walking in my office one day, Rick Warren, a pastor from this big church in Southern California, Saddleback, and he was overweight. He wanted to get healthy. I'm like, "All right, let's go to dinner after." He's like, "Sure." So we had dinner, I said, "Tell me about your church." He's like, "Well, I got 30,000 people in my church." I'm like, "Wow, that's a big church," and he says, "We've got 5,000 groups that meet every week to help each other live better lives." I'm like, "Ahhh," and I had that light bulb moment where I'm like, "Hey Rick, why don't we put a healthy living program in your church?" He said, "How?" Well, I had this thought. Why don't we just hijack his church for a social experiment and see if my theory works?
He's like, "Yeah, because I was baptizing in the church last week, and after about the 800th one I'm like, "Man, we're a fat church, and I'm fat, and we got to do something." So we launched this program. We though a couple hundred people would show up. 15,000 people showed up. They had to turn 2,000 people away at the church because it was the biggest event they'd ever had. We had a quarter million pounds lost in the first year by these 15,000 people, and also they got healthy, so they got rid of their diabetes meds, their migraine meds, their autoimmunes got better, their mood got better. It was just quite striking.
I realized that using the power of each other, and all we did was create a curriculum. That accountability, feedback, support from the community is the most powerful thing. I'd say the group is the medicine. Food is medicine, but group is medicine. I call it the love diet. We have to help each other, we have to accompany each other to health, and we need that community support.
Jeff: It's so interesting that you talk about the church potentially being this place of continuity, gathering with continuity, right, because you're tapping back into something that gives you purpose, but that also gives you community on a continual basis. Where my mind goes with that is okay, well there's 300,000 churches or something in the United States, but there's also 24,000 yoga studios, right? And this is where people are going, not just for a workout, because you could just go take a run by yourself for a workout, these are places where people are going to gather around a shared practice and that practice makes you healthy. There's almost an accountability that it gives to the people around you, right?
Mark: Sure. I'm going to work harder when I have people around me than when I'm just going to do it myself.
Jeff: Right. That's crazy.
Mark: Well, we are social beings. That's how we're wired. Imagine a human living alone in the world. It's impossible. We are networked with our bigger community, even if we don't feel it, and we depend on each other, rely on each other, and it turns out that actually creates a tremendous amount of healing in the body. We know this. You're more likely to live longer if you're in a bowling group, or a knitting group versus just knitting on your own or bowling on your own. More likely if you're in a church or community center.
You've got one of the longest living populations in the world with the Okinawans, where they have something called Moai, which is this group of people that gather in infancy, basically, they're family assigns them to this friend group, and they literally live their whole lives together, supporting each other.
And now we do that. We have something called Functioning for Life, We use functional medicine, and food as medicine, and the social support, and we put them in groups. There's groups of eight to 12, every week they meet for two hours for 10 weeks, and there's follow up support, and we find strikingly, we're collecting data on all these, and we're seeing that the people in the groups do far better than the ones with the one on one visit, even with the same doctor for the same disease. We're seeing sustainable behavior change. It's just striking how powerful it is.
Jeff: That is mind blowing.
Mark: It's all about community, it's all about the commune, it's all about connection, it's all about how do we thrive as human beings? I believe that, people talk about what are the essential ingredients for health? It's exercise, it's eating right, it's sleep, it's meditation, but it's also connection and love, and community.
Jeff: Community is obviously a big differentiator in terms of how you're approaching medicine.
Jeff: Can you outline some of the other big differentiators between functional medicine and integrated medicine and also typical Western medicine and its approach to care?
Mark: Yeah. Typical Western medicine is essentially driven off an old paradigm, which is sort of reactive. It's like, one, if your head hurts, you go to the head doctor. If your stomach hurts, you go to the stomach doctor. If your joint hurts, you go to the joint doctor. And they diagnose you based on your symptoms, where it is in your body, and that's basically medicine, by symptoms and geography.
Whereas now, we're completely redefining disease in a way that forces us to break that whole paradigm apart, but it's so fixed and everything's organized in medicine around it. All our diagnosis codes, all our medical specialties, all medical education, all continuing education is driven off of this paradigm of silos and separation.
But now we know, for example, a microbiome can cause autism, cancer, and heart disease, and dementia, and diabetes, and obesity, and autoimmune diseases. It's like, what? How does that work? When you go to the doctor for rheumatoid arthritis, they don't go, "Let me look at your microbiome." They should be. When you go to cardiologist, they should be.
I just went to this extraordinary lecture by William Lee, who's a cancer doctor from Boston. He was like, "We found that in immunotherapy," which is a very cool new therapy for cancer that can be profoundly effective, "who responds and who doesn't." Like 40% respond. They rest may not.
He's like, "We found that if they're missing one of these key microbiome bacteria, they don't respond."
Mark: By eating the right foods and the right prebiotics, you can actually grow these healthy bacteria back and change your response to cancer and get cured from cancer by eating the right foods to fix your bacteria in your gut. It's like, what?
Mark: Everything's connected, so that's really the problem with Western medicine. Now, holistic medicine, alternative medicine, integrated medicine ... I grew up in the '70s, and that was when holistic health was great. There was the holistic health handbook, which anybody can look up. I still have mine. It had crystals, and homeopathy, and Ayurveda. It was like the catalog of all of these alternative therapies.
Jeff: Right. It's like the preppy handbook for holistic medicine.
Mark: Pretty much. There was a course I took, a summer class. It was fascinating. It was really all just distinct modalities that could be incorporated into the healing process, which is a great idea.
Mark: But integrated medicine, basically, was integrating these alternative modalities with traditional thinking. So, it wasn't a map, it was a set of tools that you could integrate. The question is, let's say you have a migraine, if you go to the Ayurvedic doctor, they're going to say you have this dosha imbalance. If you go to Chinese medicine, you have a spleen chi imbalance. And if you go to the biofeedback specialist, they're going to say you have too much stress. And if you go to the nutritionist, maybe you have a magnesium deficiency. And if you go to the psychologist, they're going to say you've got a whatever whatever.
There's a sense of the blind men and the elephant, like each has got their own silo and sees what they see, but they don't actually see the whole thing.
Mark: Function medicine says, wait a minute. These are all great modalities, so are drugs and surgery when needed. How do we integrate integrated medicine? In other words, how do we create a map so that we know which tools to use?
Mark: Function medicine isn't a modality. It isn't a test. It isn't a supplement. It isn't an intervention. It's a way of thinking differently about disease based on root causes, based on systems, based on understanding the body. It's a set of very core functional systems that have to be in balance for you to be healthy, and there's things that disturb that balance, things that help create balance, and that we have to integrate that and understand that disease really occurs and emerges from the interaction of genes and environment. And environment in a big sense: your diet, lifestyle, your exposure, et cetera. Your thoughts, your feelings, those are all your environment. How those influence your biology.
Function medicine really is agnostic when it comes to what the intervention is. It's really a way of thinking about root causes, and that's what so powerful.
Jeff: Right. Marianne Williamson has a great quote that she applies to societal health, which is, "We have to stop watering the leaves. We have to start watering the roots."
Mark: Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly what functional medicine is, it's dealing with the roots.
Jeff: When you're working on a diagnosis and you're looking for root causes, what's that process look like, and how can people empower themselves in that process? Because not everybody has Dr. Mark Hyman as their personal care physician.
Mark: Well, a lot of this can be done on your own. I read a book years ago called UltraMind Solution, which takes people through a process of quizzes, they're self-diagnostic quizzes. A lot of this compare from history. If you have gut issues, you have detox issues, if you have hormonal issues, if you're nutritionally deficient, you can tell a lot from asking questions. And then you can then stage your treatment based on self care, which I call self care, which is one of the basic principles for everybody. And then if you need extra help, what can you do? Maybe you take extra magnesium if you're low on magnesium, maybe you take these herbs if you have hormonal dysregulation, maybe you do these foods or these supplements if you have detox issues.
And if that doesn't work, then there's the medical care component, so what's good basic foundational health for everybody, what's the self care component, and what's the medical care. It's amazing how many people just do that and don't even-
Jeff: Yeah. They don't need to go the last step.
Mark: No. We see this even in our clinic. When we just give people basic foundational stuff with the groups that's not super personalized, 50% don't even need to see the doctor after. They were desperate to get to see the doctor. That's why they joined the group, because we told them if you can join the group, you'll get in the doctor's faster. But it turns out they don't even need to see the doctor, so it's very powerful.
The concept of what you asked is how do we sort through this, and it's really two simple things. One is, take out the bad stuff, put in the good stuff. And how do you know what bad stuff is? Well, there's really a short list of bad stuff. It's toxins, it's microbes. And it could be your microbiome, it could be infections like viruses or ticks. It's allergens, so something that's irritating your immune system. It could be gluten, dairy, foods, environmental allergens. And it could be toxins like heavy metals, mold toxins, other persistent toxins that people get. Poor diet, stress, and how those interact with your genes, and those then create imbalances in these basic systems if you don't have enough of the right stuff.
Again, how do you create a healthy human is a very simple list of stuff that's sort of obvious. Food is medicine, right? Understand that. And then you need the right nutrients, because all of us are different. We might need more vitamin D or B, 12 or folate, magnesium. We need the right balance of hormones, and maybe we need some hormones as our health changes. We need light. We need, actually, full spectrum light between the morning to regular.
And we need quality sleep, and many people don't have that. We need movement, so moving our bodies. We need air, clean air. We need water. We need restoration, which is sort of the meditation/yoga component to reset our nervous system because we don't automatically relax if you just sit and watch TV.
We need community. We need connection. We need love. We need purpose. We need meaning. These are all ingredients for health, so if we don't have that ... It's basically taking out the bad things, putting in the good things, and then the body will reset.
Jeff: Yeah. It's funny, that list of things that you just said are the things that we need. One of the characteristics that every single thing that you just said share? They're all old.
Jeff: They're all true.
Mark: Yeah. It's not rocket science.
Jeff: It's rediscovering these things that are old and true to address problems that are modern and new, right?
Jeff: I want to talk a little bit about testing, because in order to understand where your deficiencies are, do you need to test? How does one go about that?
Mark: A lot of that could be done through deep questioning.
There are a few tests you have to do to be sure, like if you're not sure if you have Lyme or tick stuff, you have to check that. But you can tell from a questionnaire if your likelihood is high, so we do a screening questionnaire, and if your score is over X, then you likely have a tick infection. Or if you have a lot of history that indicates heavy metal poison, like you eat tuna fish every day or you have a mouthful of fillings, then we'll suspect mercury. We can tell, and then sometimes you have to go deeper. But most of the time, even through a questionnaire, like a magnesium deficiency questionnaire. If you have muscle cramps, constipation, palpitations, headaches, insomnia, anxiety, you probably have a magnesium deficiency.
If you're inside all the time and you have muscle weakness and fatigue, and your immune system isn't working, a little depression. In an exam you can do your bones, you can press your shin, and if it's tender you probably have a vitamin D deficiency. Actually, if you don't eat any fish and you don't have any supplements with omega 3, you're probably omega 3 deficient, depending on what your diet is.
We really can tell a lot from the story. But as a functional medicine doctor, you're also a medical detective.
When you go to the doctor, "Well, all your tests are normal. That's fine. You're fine." And they're like, well, that means one of two things: either you're crazy or your doctor's missing something.
There's a joke. A guy loses his keys on the street, and he's looking under this lamppost. His friend comes by and he's like, "What's going one?"
"Where'd you lose them?"
"I lost them down the street."
He says, "Why you looking over here?"
He says, "The light's better here."
So, we look at our typical stuff that we look at in medicine. We look at your blood panel. We look at your blood count. We look at your chemistry. We look at your cholesterol.It's not really a good indicator of health or well-being or on diagnosing the key things. So functional medicine is a way of navigating through your story to find out what things you should test and what things you should look at. So for each of those things that I talked about that are the root causes or the things that are missing there's ways of testing for that. So I can test for toxins. I can test for the microbiome. I can test for infection. I can test for allergens. I can test for nutritional factors. Same thing. I can look at what are you missing nutrient wise, what are you missing hormone wise. Even sleep. You can look at sleep patterns.
You can get a lot of data either from direct lab testing or from quantified self-testing which is these sleep trackers. You can look at heart rate variability on your iPhone, you can put your thumb or finger on the camera and different programs allow you to check your heart rate variability which is the robustness of your health of your sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic which is critically important for your health, longevity and if you have a low heart rate variability it means your body is not very resilient and you're more likely to die.
So there's a direct correlation with your heart variability and that's a thing that means that you need to meditate or destress or look at your thoughts and beliefs that lead you to be stressed and work on that because that's a key indicator. So there's a lot of tests you can do depending what's going on with somebody and that's what functional medicine is, it takes us down a whole level of kinds of functional testing.
So we can do regular tests and it's really important to understand how do you assess these systems in the body. And that's what functional medicine diagnostics does.
Jeff: I wanted to talk about the healthcare industry for a second.
It feels like in the traditional American medical system that we have skewed the outcomes. That success is not outcome oriented.
Mark: It's process oriented.
Jeff: It's process oriented, it's treatment oriented. So do you feel like you're sort of spearheading a movement or revolution inside the healthcare industry to essentially make wellbeing and wellness health? Like we always talk about health and wellness like those things are separate somehow. But wellness is health.
Mark: Yeah for sure. Yeah. So here's what's happening. Under Obamacare there was a number of provisions that were mostly ignored by the median consumer which have to do with creating value based healthcare. So what that means is typically in healthcare we get paid for doing stuff whether it works or not.
In other words, let's say I was a car company and I built cars but only one out of every 100 cars worked when you drove it off the factory. And you still pay for the car. So that's what's happening now. We're paying for visits for volume, we're paying for doing more, we're paying for getting reimbursed for procedures. For example we know that angioplasties don't really work for most people but people still do it because you get like seven grand for an angioplasty.
We get reimbursement based medicine and then we know that lifestyle medicine works better for heart disease or diabetes than taking pills, but we'll pay for example on a recent study they paid 240,000 a year in insurance for the worst poorly controlled diabetics. And when they gave them $2,400 in food in an experiment and a little support with coaches and nutritionists and training they reduced the cost by $192,000 or 80 percent per person. Yet we won't pay for the food, we'll pay for the medication and the hospitalizations and the surgeries that are required to fix these patients. It's just crazy.
So we're moving to this value based care system. There's incentives building and it's going to be in the next three to five years where there's going to be more of a transition. So the incentives are changing, the financial incentives have been misaligned, they're becoming more aligned and that's going to incentivize changes in care delivery and the kinds of things that we're looking at.
Jeff: So you're saying that this is baked into the ACA because we hear a lot about the Patient Bill of Rights. Can't discriminate against preexisting conditions. You're on your parents healthcare til your 26, all this kind of stuff but so this is value based approach is baked in there.
Mark: Yes embedded in and it's being pushed out by Medicare. Now the challenge in traditional medicine is they don't know how to do things differently. It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
It's not going to do the same thing better, it's not about giving better medications. It's about doing something different and that's what functional medicine provides.
Jeff: So this notion of personal responsibility.If you were to say like OK yeah you can move, eat well, meditate, distress, what are the other things that you would say kind of directly to a person of like here's your responsibility. Not the healthcare industry's responsibility. This is your responsibility.
Mark: You need to have a way to actually integrate changes in your lifestyle, behavior and your environment. So that's why we're looking at community based models, that's why we're going to churches. We need to rethink care delivery and that is so important.
Jeff: Last thing. So I think you probably know Mark Bertolini.
Mark: Yeah very well.
Jeff: He's the chairman and CEO of Aetna. And he has a pretty deep personal practice. He and his wife they're I think yogis and meditators. And I'm wondering when Aetna or other insurers will say cool yeah we're not just going to cover the treatment side we're also cover your yoga class or your meditation.
Are we going to get there?
Mark: Yeah. I mean right now we're launching a project called the Food Farmacy with an F at Cleveland Clinic where we're going to take food insecure diabetics, we're going to give them food for their family for seven days a week free. Teach them how to use it, teach them how to cook, teach them how to shop, support them in community, put them in groups and we're going to show that if you do that you're going to save like 80 percent or 50 or whatever of your healthcare costs.
But if you look at diabetes it is the biggest driver of our healthcare costs. So if we can cut that by 20 percent, 50 percent, 80 percent. Guess what? Insurers are going to pay for that. They're not dumb but they need the data. So we're in this data driven era. And that's fine. So we're collecting the data. We're using the analytics, we want to be robust in what we're doing and we'll publish it. And I think that's going to start to shift people's behavior. There's already a food and medicine caucus in Congress, there's already food and vegetable prescriptions that are being done. California is spending 20 million dollars to provide food for the sickest patients. So there's certainly things that are happening in this space that are hopeful and changing.
I just was at a healthcare leader conference in Washington. Really people engaged in running the world in healthcare and the conference topics were on community, were on social determinants, were on food as medicine or on sustainability and climate change and I'm like what is going on here. And so it was very hopeful for me to see this kind of thinking permeate into leadership positions in healthcare and other places in food systems.
Jeff: You mean that's not just being talked about at Burning Man and Wanderlust.
Mark: Nope nope nope nope. It's pretty impressive.
Jeff: Well you're our messenger.
Mark: I take off my Burning Man clothes and I go to the meetings with a suit and tie. I'm like a shaman in a suit. No one knows what I'm really there for.
Jeff: Keep going. Thanks Mark.
Mark: All right. Thanks Jeff.
Jeff: Thomas Edison once said, "The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will instruct his patient in the care of the human frame, in diet and in the cause and prevention of disease."
Big idea from the guy who invented the lightbulb - but the shift to functional medicine isn’t that dissimilar to the how the lightbulb revolutionized mankind.
When Rockefeller (who had built his fortune by refining oil for kerosene lamps) realised that electric light could replace kerosene, he launched a PR campaign against it, painting the new technology as dangerous and irresponsible.
Every big paradigm shift goes up against all kinds of resistance - especially one that involves massive financial institutions, or complex insurance systems. This just means that we as individuals need to step up and take ownership of our personal health journeys.
But the good news is that the shift to functional medicine is already starting to happen. We just need to put in a the work to find healthcare professionals who aren’t afraid of a little progress…. and a lot of questions.
To learn more, and to take Mark’s 10-day course on “Hacking Your Healthcare,” head over to onecommune.com.
Thanks for listening to the Commune podcast, tell your friends, and be sure to subscribe for new episodes every week.
I’m Jeff Krasno - see you next time.
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